D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

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D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Archengeia on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:18 pm

Well I had planned on continuing both the real campaign and the casual for-fun campaigns but my microphone just died so... yeah. I guess we're officially on hold now until I fix that problem which is going to require money and time and, at this point, can wait.

One other thing I wanted to ask you guys about. Basically I was curious if there was any interest in doing any fourth edition stuff with the casual, just-for-fun modules or sessions. Just out of curiosity.

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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Zeiss on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:17 pm

Personally, I have no interest in modules.

I like your campaign because we focus on the story with some puzzles as flavor. But with the modules, we focus on the puzzles and the story is there simply as flavor. I can see why some people might enjoy it, but I don't really.

So I'll simply wait for the campaign to start again. Very Happy

*Flies away*
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Rory on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:25 am

As far as DnD goes in general, I don't like the idea that mages have to "prepare" spells in order to use them each day. If we could do away with that for the down-time games and switch in the mana system, that would be nice. As for 4th edition, it depends, I don't know what the obvious changes are, particularly the trade-offs.
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Essoje on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:13 pm

Well, the 'prepare' spell thing is an interesting mechanic for wizards (what people usually mean by mages in 3.5), that rewards planning and trying to be one step ahead, and good wizard players usually have their prepared spell list for the next day done before the GM can even mention sleep. That said, they are dependent on their spellbook, that holds all their 2190723127 known spells. Take away their spellbook and they become useless.

What you are looking for is the Sorcerer class of 3.5, which can cast any spell they know without preparations and can cast more often, but their known spells are much more limited than wizards, usually lag behind wizards in terms of spell level, but don't need a spellbook.

So, ahem, 4th edition. Much more action-oriented than 3.5. Usually in a tabletop session, they gain special actions as 'cards', together with explanatory text about each of them. That way, they are easier to keep track and have all the information needed at hand. At-will actions can be used as often as they wish, Encounter actions can be used in battle and return at the end of the combat, and Daily only come back after a good night of sleep.

Anyways, the at-will/encounter/daily system holds true for all characters, so wizards and sorcerers in 4e also work like that. Wizards still prepare their spells as Daily actions, but it's much easier to keep track. And there's still sorcerers around.

I'm a firm believer that the rpg system mechanics also helps tell the story. It's hard to tell a horror story using Ghostbusters RPG (actual rpg system). So 4th edition is the right tool if you want action hack-and-slash with epic heroic fantasy bits in it. It has a different pacing than 3.5, and works great for combats (a level 1 4e character can do stuff a level 1 3.5 character can only hope to get at higher levels), but everything else suffers mechanically (which can be solved by roleplaying to be fair). It also puts a lot more emphasis on the battle map, with powers based on movement and location.

==tl;dr version==

Leave 3.5 wizards alone dude. They are fine as they are, trust me.
Use sorcerer instead, less paperwork, more blasting stuff, maybe a utility spell here and there.
Me <3 Fighters.

3.5 is balanced towards survival, sandboxing and roleplaying.
4th edition is basically a fantasy action movie in tabletop form, enabling the party to go from encounter to encounter quickly, and is more streamlined than 3.5 edition. Too streamlined in some parts, imho.
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Rory on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:58 pm

Essoje wrote:==tl;dr version==

Leave 3.5 wizards alone dude. They are fine as they are, trust me.
Use sorcerer instead, less paperwork, more blasting stuff, maybe a utility spell here and there.
Me <3 Fighters.
Fine. I was going for that anyway.

Essoje wrote:3.5 is balanced towards survival, sandboxing and roleplaying.
4th edition is basically a fantasy action movie in tabletop form, enabling the party to go from encounter to encounter quickly, and is more streamlined than 3.5 edition. Too streamlined in some parts, imho.
...Why can't we have ALL of it!?
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Kolson on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:27 pm

Well, I'm obviously interested in some 4E action. It's a fun game that does what it does mostly well.

As an example of a 4E character, here's what the character Rory might look like in that edition at level 1.

Rory's Character Sheet
Level 1 Power Cards
Race, Class Features, Feats
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Gwydo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:38 pm

Last year I started running some friends through a 4E module that another friend of mine wrote. Zeiss' comment about the story vs. puzzles is fairly true. (Though he had intended on building an entire campaign around the story it's based upon, he decided to move to Pathfinder instead of continuing with 4E so it was never completed beyond the first module. Temple of Outsiders)

That said, I have some experience with 4E and Essoje is right.
Essoje wrote:4th edition is basically a fantasy action movie in tabletop form, enabling the party to go from encounter to encounter quickly, and is more streamlined than 3.5 edition.
Now the streamlining makes for faster combat, as all characters have specific "moves" or "powers" that they can do. That said, outside of the specific "moves" or "powers" the game rules are somewhat limiting.
One problem we ran into was bizarre. One of my players, his fighter wanted to wear plate armor. According to the rules, only Paladins can wear plate.
Um.... WTF??? Since when can a fighter NOT wear heavy armor?????
So a new house rule and a new feat was built into the character builder to allow for it.
Speaking of the Character Builder..... I'll just say it is a unique tool.
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Rory on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:27 pm

Kolson Wezrae wrote:As an example of a 4E character, here's what the character Rory might look like in that edition at level 1.

Rory's Character Sheet
Level 1 Power Cards
Race, Class Features, Feats
That's...interesting. In addition to those save bonuses, it'd be hard not to choose the Human race out of all that incentive. Also, I think being a butcher would give me appropriate save bonuses against undead, enemy actions with appropriate circumstance bonuses, and scenes of gore, or just plain scenes of death, like that room full of decaying corpses. Other than that, not bad. You did good.
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Kolson on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:12 pm

@Gwydo: That isn't true. Most Fighters just don't start with Plate Prof as part of their class package.* With a starting 14 Con he could have bought the plate prof at level 4 after distributing his stat bumps for the first time.

To compare: A 3.5 fighter wouldn't be able to afford Half-plate until between level 2-3 and Full Plate until 4-5, assuming that:

1. He could find a smith willing and able to make it.
2. The GM was following the wealth by level tables.
3. He spent his money on nothing else.

That's pretty comparable, even if the hoops a player has to jump through are different.  

*The Knight, one of the late Fighter builds, starts with Plate proficiency. It's very much a sword and board build though.

@Rory: Thanks, I did my best to capture your character's fighting style.

Humans are a good choice for any class, but don't necessarily excel the way the other races do at the classes they line up with, due to stat pairings, racial powers, feat support, and paragon paths (kind of like a prestige class except everyone can only have one and it doesn't kick in until level 11).


Last edited by Kolson Wezrae on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Archengeia on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:56 pm

Just to make it clear; I have no real opinion on A: Doing the casual sessions at all and B: Doing them in 4th or 3.5. I was merely seeing what you guys thought.

One other point of interest though: You guys are effectively out of the fire and frying pan and need to decide what to do next in the main campaign and you have some time to think about it. I'd strongly recommend discussing it and deciding BEFORE we start our next session.

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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

Post by Snarg of Wildpaw on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:20 am

I'm up for casual sessions, although if I had to make a choice, I'd go with 4th edition over 3.5 for casual play based on what I've seen. Funny enough, the most experience I have actually using 4th edition was that one night last week. That and listening to Acquisitions, Inc.
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Re: D&D On Hold For Now: Also, 4th Edition

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