Framed (again)

Ok, first of all, sorry about calling people stupid unknowingly. I dunno how it work in the english language, but in Brazil, if you call an action stupid, you are not automatically calling the person who did it stupid. That, and I've just learned the two words don't carry the same strength behind them, it seems. This not me trying to be smart or smug, it was an honest mistake, I hope it can be forgiven.

Now, the only thing I know for certain right now is that the party is not anymore doomed than before because two party members were captured, because Arch wasn't trying very hard to hide the fact that the party was close to a wipe in case they all tried to escape. For this bit I'm not sorry, except that it prompted Zeiss to do the same, and he might have been more useful in the party.

Lastly, I'm going to point out that attempting a rescue mission or finding the real culprit are not the only alternatives. The least confrontational way and fastest way to do it would probably finding evidence Zeiss is innocent, which is why I got all worked over the murder weapon being thrown into the ocean before it was scanned first. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I'm going to shut up now and let you guys do your thing.

When you say the "derp"(stupid) is strong with this one party, you are referring to all of us. You did call the action stupid(anything along the lines of "you are 'being' stupid" would also have been a sidestep), but when you said this you were effectively commenting on the action and the actor both.

I'm sure that leaving the rapier to drown in the pacific is probably the best, considering what else Zeiss may have done with it. That weapon has been to the Tusker lassel, Bonebreaker's lair, and other places where secret secrets were secretly done in secret and best kept...unknown.

I announced that I would join Kolson tomorrow when he meets with the pond celebrity, that means Higaide and Advoc will do the information gathering. There is nothing more planned today, and it is late, so we will all be sleeping.

Let's let that thing rest, shall we?

About the Rapier, hear me out for a second. We can't save those two as it is right now, and even if we could, this whole event has ramifications that extend far beyond out little party. Our one and only chance, far as i can see it, is find actual culprit behind this. You know, the guys who have been steadily pushing this continent into all-out war since the campaign started. Right now, they have covered their tracks to the point we have no connection whatsoever to them, nowhere to start looking. Our one clue is that rapier. Maybe by casting Scan on it or something, we can find out where else it's been, and have some kind of clue as to where to start looking. It's our one and only source of information, our only tie to the people who set this up. I really think we should try to retrieve it.

No K, we are not sweeping this under the rug. If we don't deal with this now it will poison pill the party dynamic and cause the game to implode. I know how important the game is to you guys so I don't want to see that happen.

Essoje wrote:Ok, first of all, sorry about calling people stupid unknowingly. I dunno how it work in the english language, but in Brazil, if you call an action stupid, you are not automatically calling the person who did it stupid. That, and I've just learned the two words don't carry the same strength behind them, it seems. This not me trying to be smart or smug, it was an honest mistake, I hope it can be forgiven.

I agree with Rory. The problem is in how you expressed your disagreement, not that you did. When you decided to give up, party members tried to convince you not to do it. We put forth arguments as to why you shouldn't. Notice we didn't call you names. When you made it clear that you were decided I dropped it out of respect for you. You did not return that respect. Do you understand now?

Essoje wrote:Now, the only thing I know for certain right now is that the party is not anymore doomed than before because two party members were captured, because Arch wasn't try
ing very hard to hide the fact that the party was close to a wipe in case they all tried to escape. For this bit I'm not sorry, except that it prompted Zeiss to do the same, and he might have been more useful in the party.

I emphatically disagree. Arch has stressed over and over again that we are in the driver seat here. What I'm saying is we could have tried; I highly suspect that if the dice were with us Senior GM would have rewritten what happened. I can't speak for others but I know I like being surprised and being able to switch gears seamlessly is one of the strengths of forum RP.

Essoje wrote:Lastly, I'm going to point out that attempting a rescue mission or finding the real culprit are not the only alternatives. The least confrontational way and fastest way to do it would probably finding evidence Zeiss is innocent, which is why I got all worked over the murder weapon being thrown into the ocean before it was scanned first. Sorry about that.

I'm inclined to disagree. I'm weary of justice systems that put the burden on the suspect, especially when someone went through so much trouble to make sure Zeiss would take the fall for a murder of such an important Aluvian citizen. It wouldn't surprise me if the entire thing is a sham with the outcome bought and sold before this frame job was even executed. I'll also point out that even if you guys are found innocent there is nothing stopping them from handing you over to Aluvian authorities so you can face an Aluvian trial.

That's the thinking I'm operating under and why I got rid of the rapier. It's also why I'm inclined towards busting you guys out of there post haste.

Essoje wrote:Anyway, I'm going to shut up now and let you guys do your thing.

Please don't Essoje. You are a valued member of this group. You are fun and clever and you built Javan to be able to go toe to toe with just about anyone. Just because we disagree doesn't make all that suddenly not true.

Hey, i got no problem sorting this out in a civilized manner, if that's where this was going. Some things that were said didn't lead me to think that was turning out to be the case, though i don't mind being proven wrong there.

On the matter of what to do, then, i trust you guys have at least considered what i've said.

On a side note, you guys should not risk yourselves just to find that rapier for one good reason : it's in the ocean. Assuming it's still near the shores, you would still need quite a bit of luck and equipment to find it. No, if someone has to go, it'll be Advoc and nobody else. Why? First of all, because he doesn't breathe (don't think so anyway) and second of all, he is an Aspect of Light so he doesn't need a flashlight. And he can go at it all night if need be. So if the party decides to search for it, this is the course of action that I recommend.

Now, you guys can continue discussing about the subject at hand. Didn't want to interrupt, but it needed to be addressed and I figured I would do it now. Sorry. *whistles and walks away*

I'll agree, I made some really bad calls when I tried to communicate how I was feeling about the whole thing. Name calling was not part of it in what went into my head, but it seems it was in the execution, which is what matters. Sorry. I'll be paying extra attention next time I find myself in a situation like that again.

Also, us being in the driver's seat does not make us immune to things. In fact, it makes it easier for us to mess things up. Freedom of will, with all that it entails! I still stand my point that we were a hair's breath away from a party wipe, and might still be.

I'll still shut up for a bit, if only to allow things to calm down.

Essoje wrote:I'll agree, I made some really bad calls when I tried to communicate how I was feeling about the whole thing. Name calling was not part of it in what went into my head, but it seems it was in the execution, which is what matters. Sorry. I'll be paying extra attention next time I find myself in a situation like that again.

Thank you. Apology accepted.

Essoje wrote:Also, us being in the driver's seat does not make us immune to things. In fact, it makes it easier for us to mess things up. Freedom of will, with all that it entails! I still stand my point that we were a hair's breath away from a party wipe, and might still be.

I understand and agree with everything you wrote here. I've gotten my own characters killed even though I did everything right. I've gotten other people's characters killed because I messed up and did something stupid. I've also lost characters because other people chose to do those things. As a GM I've seen players do all of that both forwards and backwards.

I had a rogue once who poisoned himself when he accepted a free ale from an obviously shady inn keeper (he was a demon worshiping cultist trying to prevent the party from mucking up his demon's plans). The entire party told him not to, but he did it anyway. He died 2 in-game days later when they couldn't procure the antitoxin in time. It happens. I still chose to run this time because I couldn't abide the consequences of being caught. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

That said, I swear to you I'll do everything in my power to rescue you guys but you also need to understand I may not be able to. We may not be able to. You may have gotten both Zeiss/Advoc and Javan killed as well as anyone who attempts to get you out of this. It's very frustrating to say the least.

@K I think the rapier is a waste of time given its time in the ocean. Destroying evidence was why I threw it in there in the first place. It also brings up the need for a yellow mage to cast Scan. Who is that going to be and with what money are we going to pay them? Can we trust them at all? Can we afford anyone who is good enough to interpret the data?

If you disagree, please walk me through your reasoning.

I'm not so sure that the Aspect can't drown. It's a literal copy of you, and gets hurt in fights, etc. If anything, it has all the strengths and weaknesses of its original counterpart. If you were a Moarsman, Advoc probably wouldn't have to worry about losing oxygen when swimming underwater, but you are a Human. Your aspect(s) is Human as well, and is therefore, to my logic, susceptible to drowning.

The trust and pay things are both valid points, but what has me here is what i've said above, which i'll try to expand on.

Saving Zeiss and Javan, i'm with you there, but considering where they are, and the kind of high-value prisoners the have become, i'd rate our chances of busting them out at slim to none. For one thing, i think their guilt or innocence has become a secondary concern for the Sho. The death of a high-ranking enemy official on their soil has just kicked up such a monumental political shitstorm, that they absolutely need a scapegoat, for the vestigial good it would do them. At the same time, this creates a much bigger problem for us, as well as all the setting: two of the continent's dominant powers are going to war, and i know you remember enough of what happened at Marblebush to know the kind of catastrophe that would be. If Sho and Alluvia go into armed conflict, and just a tenth of those Combat Airships replicate a magicite core breach like the one we saw back at the Anetheron facility, it would turn the continent into something from Judgement Day.

Given the magnitude of the problem, i think it's safe to say we won't be able to save ourselves by just saving ourselves here, if you take my meaning. It's just that bad.

At the same time, this creates an oportunity. We won't be able to trust legitimate authorities here, but we may be able to secure one of the dominant parties' cooperation (Kinhz or Lorkhiff) by virtue of the sheer magnitude of the problem we're all facing. At present, i don't know who would be the best choice to hedge our bets with. Under normal circumstances, i'd say Lorkhiff without batting an eye, as i think she's the least likely to have set us up (i can elaborate on why, if you want). Unfortunately, we just happened to have pissed her off, so i don't know how pragmatic she'd be. Kinzh, we're probably in his good grace, but i trust him less by default (he's the one who had the authorities in his pocket, and look what just happened; even if the forces that took Javan and Zeiss weren't under his thumb, he might just want to hand us over to the military anyway). So admittedly, none is a really safe option, but it's also very possible both are on the up and up as far as trying to plunge their nation into all-out war goes. Anyone who wants to avoid this conflict WILL have a vested interest in finding the real culprits behind this incident. And the one solid lead we have is that murder weapon. It's the one thing we can present to anyone that might be willing to help us that might produce some kind of result.

The Sho Military and Government WILL make their case with or without that rapier, they're desperate enough that they just have to. As a piece of evidence against us, it's almost redundant, given the sheer gravity of the situation.

In short, i understand the risk of taking our chances with anyone outside our immediate party. I know anyone we reach out for help could be planting a dagger in our backs, but i really believe the consequences of what will happen if we don't intervene are devastating enough to warrant a try. And that same reason may just give us enough common urgency with the two magnates that it might work.

I didn't know Zeiss was human.

Also, Advoc isn't a copy of Zeiss. He is a being made of elemental energy of light whose personality is based on Zeiss', and more specifically on one of his defining trait. Further details can only be provided by Arch as I don't know them myself.

As for who we should appeal to for help, it obviously can't be Lorkhihf. She's not stupid and will figure out that Zeiss stole her family heirloom. Kinzh'Lizakh is the one to go to. Even if the possibility that he turns on the rest of the party exists, and forgets about the previous deal we made, I am inclined to think he would keep the end of his bargain and maybe even help us with our current problem. If we manage to sell the idea to him that is. From what Arch told us about him, he's the kind of person who would love to use this little crisis to further his own position.

So we should tell him something like : "Some assassins, who we discovered to be  Desolates, tried to kill high-ranked members of the Exchange and their families. We followed their trail here, in the Hebian-To peninsula. This is one of the main reasons for our presence here and now our glorious and magnificent leader has been framed for a murder he hasn't committed. We intend to thwart their plans, but we need the help of someone who is familiar with the surrounding territory and has an important power base already installed. If you were to help us dismantle this evil organization, who also happen to have upset the political balance of the whole continent numerous times, we are sure that it would greatly advance your position within the Sho political scene..."

Something like that.

Oh right, hello you are an Elf. As for whether or not Advoc is immune to drowning because he is made of Elemental energy, we will have to defer to the GM's ruling.

I like the cut of your jib. When it comes to blaming the Vyeotians for problems, we should stick to what we know we can prove(given that we have the right stuff, rings, confessions from dying men, witness accounts, etc), and what immediately concerns Khinz'Lizakh. I doubt he really cares for the well-being of any state other than the Sho Empire. We'll narrow that down to "taking advantage of the political imbalance between the nations for their own personal gain".

We will have to lead into how his interest converges with ours, namely proving the real culprit behind the murder, which the Vyeotians' nefarious plot specifically to the Sho Empire in the instance with which we are seeking his assistance. We can't forget how it might not be possible to uncover the real murderer with the Prothean touch on the murder weapon. We might be able to prove Zeiss' innocence, but as K said, the Sho probably aren't concerned with proving innocence, rather laying blame on someone other than themselves and washing their hands.

As a matter of fact, Advoc is going to roll Knowledge Politics to confirm whether that approach is a good idea from what we know. His bonus is +12. I assume Advoc doesn't have access to my Action points, so he... yeah.

*moonwalks away*

For record I'm waiting until you all have had a chance to fully debate and decide on a plan of action until letting you know how the meeting 'tomorrow' goes... unless you'd like me to just advance things a step, I can do that too.

Zeiss rolled a 1.  Now, I know I said 'no such thing as a failed roll' but that basically means that Advoc believes that the idea of offering information in exchange for support is something you might be able to barter with to the wealthy or politically affluent.

I'm still not convinced proving innocence isn't a waste of time but if you want to pursue it fine. All I ask is you locate the prison and recon the site a little. Just in case. You know, before Advoc gets terminally stupid on us.

In the mean time, I'm going to stick with my part of the plan and see if I can secure some help and/or funds from our employer.

The idea proposed is to ask for the magnate's support in figuring out who the real murderer is with us doing the footwork(as I'm sure he could figure out who did it by himself with his resources and contacts), and then let him take the limelight while our friends are led out the back door, plus we give him Lorkhihf's family heirloom.

If we can get Zeiss out of trouble without having to figure out who the real murderer is and proving it, fine. I'm content with continuing the game without ever addressing that issue.

Something i may not have expressed adequately before. The whole point behind finding the real culprit would be that i'm positive the Sho would love to have an evil organization trying to manipulate both sides into a doomsday scenario to blame, rather than some warlord guy from Alluvia. That's the whole point of finding the culprit.

I hate to bear down on the issue, but what's the decision on that rapier, then?

I've debated, and I've decided my worries are unfounded. We should get it. The depth near the docks can't be too deep that light can't reach the bottom. I go swimming, yes? I would prefer to do it at dawn though, when the light's coming from the no-obstruction side.

We could use Advoc as a flashlight. Besides, during the day everyone can see US. I expect the docks to be a busy place.

Alright, if we can use him as a flashlight I'll go swimming at night. If we can't, I'm swimming at dawn. We need to commit.

K wrote:Something i may not have expressed adequately before. The whole point behind finding the real culprit would be that i'm positive the Sho would love to have an evil organization trying to manipulate both sides into a doomsday scenario to blame, rather than some warlord guy from Alluvia. That's the whole point of finding the culprit.

I hate to bear down on the issue, but what's the decision on that rapier, then?

To quote myself:

Kolson wrote:I'm still not convinced proving innocence isn't a waste of time but if you want to pursue it fine. All I ask is you locate the prison and recon the site a little. Just in case. You know, before Advoc gets terminally stupid on us.

It bears repeating but Advoc is our best bet for locating our captured party members. I'm saying you can do your thing so long as you complete my orders first. When you make your post make it clear that Kolson told you where to look.

I'd like to know terrain, defenses, guard numbers, and patrol patterns, if possible. Unless it's an airship or other vehicle, in which case get a specific direction they are traveling in. Thank you.

You're right, i read that part but somehow it slipped my mind. Sorry about that.

If you really want me prioritize doing recon on the other side of town while the chances of finding that rapier grow slimmer by the minute, i'll do that. I just want to make sure we all understand that variable.

If you say yes, i'll post IC and get cracking with scouting out the site.

Yes! Yes! The rapier sleeps at the bottom, dreaming...of the day we return and pull it out of the water.

Rory, it's nearly a whole day before we can get one piece of communication across from one point to the other, let alone start implementing a plan of action, dude.

I'm not ragging on you, or anything, but i can't honestly tell whether you're being sarcastic or just ironic there. Are you for getting to the rapier first or after?

K wrote:If you say yes, i'll post IC and get cracking with scouting out the site.

I was saying yes to you K. I don't understand the confusion.